Guest: Dirk Hohndel (LinkedIn)
Organization: Verizon (Twitter)
Show: Let’s Talk

Dirk Hohndel, who is now heading Open Source Program Office (OSPO) at Verizon, has been involved with open source—especially the Linux kernel—for more than three decades. A close friend of Linux creator Linus Torvalds, the two have shared more than just professional interests—they often scuba dive together, a hobby that inspired Torvalds to develop the diving software SubSurface, which Hohndel later maintained. At the recent Open Source Summit in Vienna, I had the opportunity to sit down with Hohndel to discuss a wide range of topics including his own journey with Linux and open source.

Hohndel highlighted the evolution of open source from a question of viability to a foundational standard in industries like cloud computing and programming languages. He criticized companies that switch from open source to proprietary licenses, emphasizing the need for sustainable business models. He also addressed the ongoing challenges in open source, such as security, trust, and the critical role of community-driven, independent foundations. Finally, he stressed the role of OSPOs in ensuring responsible and sustainable open source practices.

Questions discussed

• How has open source evolved from its early days to now?
• How do companies like Verizon approach open source sustainability and viability?
• What is the right approach for the sustainability of open source?
• How do you look at open source and AI/Gen AI?
• What role can OSPOs play in embracing open source licenses and bringing cultural changes?

Issues & Risks

• Linux Kernel: Concerns about an aging developer base and maintainer burnout.
• Rust for Linux: Developers facing struggles in implementation.
• Open Source Business Models: Issues with companies using open source for initial traction, then switching to proprietary licenses.
• AI and Large Language Models: Concerns about copyright infringement in data scraping and the need for better definitions of open source in AI.
• Open Source Security: Risks of outdated software, attempts by nation-states and criminal gangs to undermine open source projects, and the need for a healthy trust infrastructure.

Discussion with Linus Torvalds and Open Source Community

• Hohndel talks about his Q&A session with Linus Torvalds, highlighting the recent kernel release and discussions on Rust, memory safety, and the aging developer base.
• Hohndel emphasizes the importance of keeping the conversation fresh and slightly different each time to maintain audience interest.
• Hohndel shares his 36-year journey in open source, starting with Torvalds’ announcement of Linux.

Evolution of Open Source and Corporate Adoption

• Hohndel reflects on the early days of open source, where companies questioned the viability of Linux and open source, contrasting it with the current acceptance and integration of open source in various industries.
• Hohndel mentions significant milestones like Red Hat’s IPO, IBM’s investment, and Google’s contributions that gave open source credibility.
• Hohndel discusses the expansion of open source in cloud computing, programming languages, and source code control systems, noting that open source is now a standard in many industries.
• Hohndel addresses the issue of companies switching from open source to proprietary licenses, criticizing the misuse of open source as a business model and emphasizing the need for a sustainable value proposition.

Challenges and Myths in Building Businesses Around Open Source

• Swapnil Bhartiya challenges the myth that it’s hard to build a business around open source, citing examples like Red Hat, SUSE, and Verizon.
• Dirk Hohndel agrees, explaining that running any business is challenging, and open source is no exception. He highlights the importance of having a clear value proposition and understanding where the value lies.
• Hohndel, mentions his consulting company, which helps companies navigate the line between open source and business, emphasizing the need for competent people and legal advice.
• Hohndel discusses the importance of creating a sustainable business model that goes beyond just open sourcing software, citing examples of successful companies like Percona and Red Hat.

Evaluating and Sustaining Open Source Components

• Dirk Hohndel explains Verizon’s approach to evaluating open source components, focusing on license compliance, security, and viability.
• He emphasizes the need for open source components to be able to scale to Verizon’s massive scale and have a healthy, diverse contributor community.
• Dirk discusses the importance of independent third parties hosting projects to ensure credibility and avoid fragmentation.
• He mentions the recent announcement from AWS moving OpenSearch to the Linux Foundation as an example of this approach.

Open Source in the AI and GenAI Space

• Swapnil Bhartiya brings up the topic of open source in the AI and GenAI space, noting the challenges with data consistency and the need for clear definitions.
• Dirk Hohndel discusses the use of open source licenses in the large language model space and the challenges of defining open source in this context.
• He criticizes the approach of some large players who argue they need to violate copyrights to make money, questioning the sustainability of such business models.
• Dirk highlights the importance of defining open source in the AI space and the ongoing efforts to do so, comparing it to the evolution of open source definitions in the past.

Open Washing and the Need for Clear Definitions

• Hohndel discusses the issue of open washing in the AI and Gen AI space, where companies try to create a perception of openness without meeting the criteria.
• Hohndel reflects on the history of open washing, mentioning examples like Open Solaris and the need for clear definitions and understanding of different licenses.
• He emphasizes the importance of community and the need for innovation in defining open source in the context of modern technology.
• Hohndel criticizes the hype around AI and GenAI, noting the challenges of achieving practical usefulness and the need for patience.

The Role of OSPOs

• Hohndel discusses the role of OSPOs in traditional companies and the trend of setting up new OSPOs by companies like Toyota.
• He explains that OSPOs play a crucial role in teaching companies how to responsibly and sustainably use open source, comply with licenses, and engage with the community.
• He mentions that some companies may de-invest in OSPOs once open source becomes ingrained in their culture, but the importance of OSPOs remains.
• Hohndel predicts that the trend of setting up OSPOs will continue, with companies learning the value of open source and the challenges of engaging with it.

Security and Safety in Open Source

• Hohndel discusses the importance of security and safety in open source, noting that while scary stories are less common, issues still exist.
• He emphasizes the need for companies to follow good practices, such as keeping software stacks updated and engaging with the community.
• Hohndel highlights the challenges of trustworthiness in open source software, mentioning attempts by nation states and criminal gangs to undermine projects.
• Hohndel discusses the importance of creating a healthy trust infrastructure within projects and between projects, emphasizing the need for investment in all open source projects, not just the big names.